Curse

Kanyatta · Jun 06, 2011, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Hi all, I don't venture into this part of the forums much, but I have a question/discussion that I think the community here would be more insightful on and could maybe enlighten me:

Basically, the last couple Z-bounties and Z-missions have been elite end-game dungeons (CoF yesterday, Slavers today), and I normally do all my Z-questing on my monk character, since that's the easiest character to get into pugs for, and monking elite dungeons in HM is not very difficult with the mass amount of consumables and PvE armor/health/friendly damage buffs.

But, when venturing into these "elite" areas, I've had some problems getting into pugs. I normally just run a standard healing burst build with seed of life and some other standard healing skills, and it's not hard to keep a team of 8 alive and manage energy. But, here's the rub:

Pretty much every freaking time I get into a pug to go do an elite mission/dungeon (this same exact thing has happened to me at least 6 times over the past 2 days), they ping me this same SUPER CRAPPY healer bar they want me to run. I ask them why they want me to run that bar, since I think it's awful, and I immediately get kicked. It always consists of Healer's Boon, GoLE, Heal Party, Renew Life, among other skills, but it's those 4 in particular that piss me right off. I'm guessing you all know about this bar, having cleared many dungeons with standard balanced teams. Let me explain why this makes me rage so hard:

Healer's Boon/Heal Party: Why? This elite skill used to be good, but now it's not. I understand with a 20% enchant it can be maintained for nearly a minute, but seriously? Monks never get interrupted in dungeons, since you tend to stay out of spellcasting/arrow range of baddies if you ever look at your compass/minimap. I can see how an extra 50% healing might be cool, especially since it bumps Heal Party up to 90+ HP for everyone, but even then, Light of Deliverance is still an overall better choice, and it doesn't take up 3 skill slots (with the glyph lesser, heal party, healer's boon)... And Healing Burst is way better than that with the uber divine favor bonus.

Glyph Lesser: This isn't a very good e-management skill for PvE in my opinion, you only get 2 spells taken down in energy, and you only have one spell on this bar that's 15 energy to take full advantage of it. If e-management is really that big of a problem for you, bring Selfless Spirit [PvE]. Even with a 4-rank in Kurzick/Luxon and a 20% enchant, it still lasts almost 20 seconds and should get you through however big of a mob you encounter, and it can be recast with only ~10 seconds of downtime, during which you shouldn't really cast 40 energy worth of spells anyway.

Renew Life: I haven't PvE'd in a long time, but when did monk hard rezzing become fashionable again? I thought we all agreed that was a bad idea after around 2006? If your party is dying, having a monk take 4 seconds (or 2 if you're lucky on the 40% cast time) off to rez a party member is only going to result in having another death in the party, and the vicious circle begins again.

And another thing: I've noticed that NO melee/damage dealers bring rez anymore in PvE, even a sig. Why not? You have to be able to drop at least one skill in your bar to bring a standard resurrect skill if you're in a balanced group. There's no way your Summon Mursaat or whatever is more important than getting a monk up as quickly as possible if your team takes a bad death. And if your team party wipes except for one or two people, the odds that your monks are the ones alive are pretty slim, because your party probably wiped because they lost their source of healing.

Summary: Healer's Boon is a mediocre elite at best, but I've found that every balanced pug in elite areas wants to smoke this skill's pole, and GoLE + Heal Party is a noob combo, even though everyone seems to love it. Also, rezzing shouldn't be a monk's responsibility.

I'm leaving room open for myself to be wrong, but I'd like to hear if anyone has any insight as to how I might be wrong on this whole thing. Or even just an explanation in the general shift in PvE groups' thinking when it comes to bringing rezzes or certain skills.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/any_Generic_Healer ... Here's the bar. It's labeled as "meta" in GWPvX. I don't understand how anything this apparently bad got meta status.

I realize Dwayna's Kiss, Patient Spirit, and Seed of Life are probably the best red bar non-elites in the game, and I have no qualms with those, and typically use those when I hench missions. Cure Hex is alright too, but I find Spotless Mind is better for PvE since hexes usually come in stacks with monsters.

thetwistedboy · Jun 06, 2011, 06:21 AM // 06:21

I can completely see Healer's Boon being a meta skill. It's a great skill because of +50% healing. That's why they want you too run that.

As for everything else, I totally agree with you. Rez on a monk is terrible idea unless it's UA, but that doesn't have much place on a general PvE team. Heal Party with GoLE is useless because when does a party seriously take that much damage at once that that much healing warranted at the cost of two skills slots that are very situational?

There are definitely better alternatives but it really feels like most people on PvX and even here on GWG that no one is open to any kind of experimentation and can somehow a judge the effectiveness of a build/strategy by just looking at the team.

Essence Snow · Jun 06, 2011, 06:26 AM // 06:26

In these groups was there already a UA monk? If so...there is a train of thought that mo/me mimic so that the monks can both have HB and UA at the same time. I'm not saying tis all that great...just saying its there.

Rez sig is really outdated specially with the likes of UA and fomf. The reason (i would guess) they have renew with gole and hb b/c it would be a 0e 2 sec rez that also heals

Granted I'm not really a fan of hb all that much but for pugs UA is pretty nice. Most time though pugs prefer red barring over prots...which I don't always agree with.

Wenspire · Jun 07, 2011, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I had come to the conclusion that a majority of the newer GW players cannot see beyond anything but PvX builds, which is sad really. That being said, HB isn't really a bad elite-skill at all. But for people not being able to realize that HB & UA are not the only good monk builds is the real problem. I especially eye UA as the culprit in a majority of PUG cases; it's just asking for multiple deaths to happen.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 07, 2011, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Worse is that a disturbing number of people can't even seem to use some of the button mashing bars properly.

thetwistedboy · Jun 07, 2011, 03:17 AM // 03:17

@above Too true. It's disturbing, the number of people who shove away ideas and playstyles like cornerblocking mobs to maximize the damage of AoE's and microing skills for maximum effectiveness. Leeroy Jenkins isn't the only way to play the game... Just like UA/HB aren't the only monk bars.

Kanyatta · Jun 07, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I had come to the conclusion that a majority of the newer GW players cannot see beyond anything but PvX builds, which is sad really.

I think you summarized the problem I'm running up against. I kind of just realized it now through this post. Thanks.

Jet · Jun 07, 2011, 03:59 AM // 03:59

That bar is not bad.... With healer's Boon 50% faster cast time and 50% more health on 40/40 heal set = less chance of being interrupted. First of all you only use heal party to counter party wide degen. With GoLE you make the cost for heal party 5 energy. Since I'm assuming your on your 40/40 set and even if your not, the chance of you being interrupted is not likely. People run Healer's Boon because it's a safety net. It works well in nearly all types of situations. People who said GoLE are dumb and idiot themselves. Have you forgotten that there was a time when GvGer's ran GoLE used to offset the cost for aegis, spirit bond, and protective spirit? Monks use it to last longer in battle when being pressured. The reason why GvGers stopped running it because after a monk cast GoLE the ranger would basically camp the monk and send out an interrupt right away since the monk would most likely be using a skill that cost 10+ energy. Meta comes and goes. If people no longer does high damage at one time there would be no need for PS or Spirit Bond meaning you won't need GoLE. Bottom line is that in PvE HB works. The heals are so strong that it can actually negate the damage done by the AI which is ironic because that is rarely true in PvP. Healing Burst is a good skill however, the jacked up attributes that you get from monsters in HM will offset your heals from healing burst and will leave you with little to no energy

halfies · Jun 07, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

i fail to see any the validity of any of your points. the monk runs a hard res because he has specced into it, and the others probably haven't. and having only ua and fomf is bad if your party is wiping. 50% extra on everything you cast is more than the divine favor boost from alot of the time, and massive party heals for 5e are awesome.
and dont bitch about people using PvX bars only, if you think your bar is so good put in on there, and then if your right it will become much easier to pug with your ''superior'' bar.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 07, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

If your party is wiping, your party is probably bad. With pve-only skills, consumables and whatnot, you should not be unintentionally dying in pve.

Xenomortis · Jun 07, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I had come to the conclusion that a majority of the newer GW players cannot see beyond anything but PvX builds, which is sad really.

To be honest, if they only used PvX builds then the quality of most PUGs I join would improve.

Here's how to deal with PuGs on a Monk (my Monk is almost used exclusively for pugging and I don't do much else in PvE at the moment).

1. Run WoH, RoF, Cure Hex, SoA, PS, Aegis, Seed of Life, GoLE*
2. Ask the other Monk what he's running. If he has Healer's Boon make sure he has Heal Party. If he has UA make sure he has Divine Healing or Heaven's Delight (Heal Party does in a pinch). If he too is running a hybrid build then that's fine, but you might miss the party heal. You might want to make some alterations to your build.
3. When asked to run anything other than your bar, say no and make sure you say that UA and Healer's Boon is bad. I haven't been kicked yet.
4. Try to convince the other Monk to not take Patient Spirit, Orison of Healing nor Ethereal Light (particularly EL if he's running UA).

*You can take Selfless over Glyph, but I prefer the Glyph for the extra utility it provides over the potentially better energy returns from Selfless. Other specifics can be changed too but I rarely deviate from that.

There is an advantage to Healer's Boon (and UA) in that you get a solid party heal whilst keeping a strong single target one. The problem with Light of Deliverance is that you cannot bring a strong single target heal. DKiss isn't great with PUGs and Patient clashes horribly with other heals in your team and cannot be used to save somebody.
Heal Party isn't really a bad skill, the problem lies in it's cast time and the fact it doesn't do much unless boosted by HB or UA. It's very effective when used correctly; being able to stabilise the party after eating a couple of AoE nukes (which you shouldn't have taken in the first place, but you are in a pick up group). Heal Party -> Glyph -> Heal Party can save you from a lot of trouble. The problem then is that you need to take Healer's Boon and you hamper your ability to do much else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

First of all you only use heal party to counter party wide degen.

People taking degen don't need imminent healing. They can get mopped up by the Seed of Life you throw when the opportunity arises, or get saved by the big single target heal when that's needed. Only when several people are low do you cast Heal Party and that can occur for many reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfies

i fail to see any the validity of any of your points. the monk runs a hard res because he has specced into it, and the others probably haven't.

Death pact Signet, Flesh of My Flesh and Restore Life are all perfectly adequate combat resses at a very low or even 0 spec. UA is the best but as said, UA isn't a particularly good choice of elite outside a few select scenarios. If a Monk carries a res he simply cannot afford to cast it during combat; doing so is surely going to result in more deaths. If you're concerned about recovery after you've ended a fight (by winning or by running) then the spec doesn't matter and a Monk has far more important things to be taking on his bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfies

and dont bitch about people using PvX bars only, if you think your bar is so good put in on there, and then if your right it will become much easier to pug with your ''superior'' bar.

The 'Meta' Mo/Any generic healer bar. This build is listed as 'Good' but is in the Meta section.
The WoH Hybrid bar as given by PvX This build is listed as 'Great' (above the other one) but is not 'Meta'.

Fighting for things on pvx is like bashing your head against a brick wall in an attempt to knock it down. You may succeed, but at what cost?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

If your party is wiping, your party is probably bad. With pve-only skills, consumables and whatnot, you should not be unintentionally dying in pve.

The random players in pick up groups are bad. It's possible to carry them as a Monk but there will be mishaps; after all, a party consisting of 7 bad players and one 'good' player is still bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Worse is that a disturbing number of people can't even seem to use some of the button mashing bars properly.

This is more annoying than anything else though. Not quite this in particular, but the idea behind it.
One of the big problems I find with pug monks is that they cast spells far too much.

Kanyatta · Jun 07, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

That bar is not bad.... With healer's Boon 50% faster cast time and 50% more health on 40/40 heal set = less chance of being interrupted. ... Since I'm assuming your on your 40/40 set and even if your not, the chance of you being interrupted is not likely

I understand that with Boon + 40/40, all spells will be cast 50% faster, and you have a chance the spell will be cast 75% faster, but to me I don't see that as that big of a deal. PvE monsters rarely can focus damage on one target effectively enough to get a solid spike, which is why 40/40 sets are run in PvP.

Plus, like I said in the original post, if you even check your compass once every 20 seconds, you should have the brainpower to stay out of the monster's aggro circles, so you should pretty much never be interrupted in PvE, unless some mesmers aimlessly wander into your backline. And even if you are casting all your spells faster, PvE monsters are too pro at rupting. They can interrupt a RoF without hardly a second thought. It's not an actual player where you have to take reaction time and human error into account. That's why people run so many rupts on heroes. Computers are imba when it comes to interrupting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

First of all you only use heal party to counter party wide degen. With GoLE you make the cost for heal party 5 energy. . People run Healer's Boon because it's a safety net. It works well in nearly all types of situations.

I'd rather bring Light of Deliverance as my elite and bring 2 skills of my choosing as opposed to Healer's Boon, GoLE, and Heal Party. Using Light of Deliverance twice heals for more than Healer's Boon + GoLE + Heal Party, and only costs 5 more energy and only takes up one skill on your bar, and you can use it more often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

People who said GoLE are dumb and idiot themselves. Have you forgotten that there was a time when GvGer's ran GoLE used to offset the cost for aegis, spirit bond, and protective spirit? Monks use it to last longer in battle when being pressured. The reason why GvGers stopped running it because after a monk cast GoLE the ranger would basically camp the monk and send out an interrupt right away since the monk would most likely be using a skill that cost 10+ energy. Meta comes and goes. If people no longer does high damage at one time there would be no need for PS or Spirit Bond meaning you won't need GoLE.

While you make a semi-convincing argument here, you still don't notice that the GvG situation you presented involved at least 2 high-energy monk spells, whereas the Boon Healer only has one, so you really aren't getting the full effect out of a GoLE, which I think is vital considering it has a 30 second recharge.

And that's not why GvGers stopped running GoLE. Rangers in GvG aren't pro enough to be able to consistently interrupt 1/4 sec cast time spells, since they're interrupts take 1/4 sec to use themselves. GoLE stopped being run in GvG for 2 reasons:
1. Because going /W or /A is an overall better benefit. With Dark Escape you can cut down on the damage being done to yourself, which saves the energy you have to use. And using Bonetti's Defense is overall better energy management and you still get the 75% block rating and also save damage incurred on yourself, even if you do have to stop casting for a couple seconds.
2. Because the way GoLE previously worked, if you did have a spell interrupted, it wouldn't use up one of the 2 charges. So if you used Prot Spirit, and then Aegis, and Aegis was interrupted, you could just cast it again and you'd still get the energy bonus. Once they changed the functionality of the skill to what it is now, GoLE became less attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

Bottom line is that in PvE HB works. The heals are so strong that it can actually negate the damage done by the AI which is ironic because that is rarely true in PvP. Healing Burst is a good skill however, the jacked up attributes that you get from monsters in HM will offset your heals from healing burst and will leave you with little to no energy

I realize PvE HB probably works, since even HM dungeons have become easymode with all the consumables and blessings and PvE-only skills, I'm just saying that I don't feel that it should be in the metagame, and that Healer's Boon shouldn't even be considered one of the top 5 monk elites. And like in my original post, Selfless Spirit can be maintained for a very long time and offers way better energy management than Healer's Boon and GoLE.

Xenomortis · Jun 07, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

I'd rather bring Light of Deliverance as my elite and bring 2 skills of my choosing as opposed to Healer's Boon, GoLE, and Heal Party. Using Light of Deliverance twice heals for more than Healer's Boon + GoLE + Heal Party, and only costs 5 more energy and only takes up one skill on your bar, and you can use it more often.

It doesn't work that way. You can't pump two LoDs in quick succession when you need to whereas you can with Heal Party.
That doesn't make LoD bad, but as I said, it locks you out of a strong single target heal which I value more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

I'm just saying that I don't feel that it should be in the metagame, and that Healer's Boon shouldn't even be considered one of the top 5 monk elites. And like in my original post, Selfless Spirit can be maintained for a very long time and offers way better energy management than Healer's Boon and GoLE.

There's little contention. Healer's Boon has a use if limited, but many Monk elites are limited in their usage.
Off the top of my head, the only monk elites worth really considering on a primary are:
Word of Healing, Healing Burst, Restore Condition, Divert Hexes, Unyielding Aura, Healer's Boon, Zealous Benediction, Light of Deliverance.

Wenspire · Jun 07, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I love Aura of Faith, and have not looked back since using it. But that's only when running prot. Unfortunately, this love does not get me into many pugs. Heh

AndrewSX · Jun 07, 2011, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Tbh, when did pugs became the bench that set the power of builds/teams?
I mean, pugs have a very limited sight usually.
"Need heal->need monk" No resto, prots generally underrated for UA/HB pumping, no emo/st...
"Need damage->need ele" Even in HM, when eles aren't actually THE damage caster.
And so on....

P.S: obviously this do not happen 100% of time (luckly...), but is very probabile to do.

Mike Jack · Jun 07, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The 'Meta' Mo/Any generic healer bar. This build is listed as 'Good' but is in the Meta section.
The WoH Hybrid bar as given by PvX This build is listed as 'Great' (above the other one) but is not 'Meta'.

Fighting for things on pvx is like bashing your head against a brick wall in an attempt to knock it down. You may succeed, but at what cost?

I'm not sure how those builds are an issue. Meta means commonly run, not great. Although great builds are commonly run, good builds that are ezpz to use are run more often. (What, you expect a PuG to run Prot Spirit wtf?)

Cuilan · Jun 08, 2011, 02:39 AM // 02:39

I think I've only been kicked once for not running HB or UA and it was for a silly Factions mission. You could explain your skill choices instead of "not as good as..." or "I'm not good with it."

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

I mean, pugs have a very limited sight usually.

Some of your examples are often true, but you can't measure how often it is. Restoration, Soul Twisting, and such are common.

On occasion though when I'm using Ether Renewal, the group I'm in will load healer heroes or add more players to heal/prot. That's three healers.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 08, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Even though ST spirit poopers is meta, it's still definitely not common. Both in terms being sought for or being offered. If it weren't for one of our officers deciding to use pug people for a couple of weeks for lulz and got to tag along, I would not believe it myself.

TiagoS1 · Jun 14, 2011, 09:46 AM // 09:46

I am not a fan of GoLE and Heal Party tbh, but i got to admit that Healer's Boon is a great skill. You must see that it provides + healing and - cast time. In theory, it allows you to heal 3 times more.

Xenomortis · Jun 14, 2011, 11:32 AM // 11:32

But unless you're using it on Heal Party, you're wasting a skill slot.